Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |

Snow Axe
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
961
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 09:10:00 -
[1] - Quote
Quote:CCP Xhagen: The answer to "why are we using real-life names" is "practical matters". We are playing on human nature, creating accountability, and we can't guarantee you will remain anonymous when you run for CSM, therefore it's just easier -- the simple solution to all this is, "we will just publish your real-life name". If that reduces the number of candidates, then we are willing to pay that price. It also means that if someone starts to threaten you, you have a certain safety-net with the authorities because they are threatening you as a real person, not as an EVE character.
Look at that quote. Just look at it. Even on its own, the belief that unpaid consultants deserve to have their personal information revealed for the purposes of encouraging vigilante justice is deplorable; that this was said in the wake of the Fanfest debacle is insulting on top of it.
If Eve's playerbase can be counted on for one thing, it's going too far, and this has been demonstrated time and time again. There is no need at all to release this information to anyone, and doing it despite the issues that come up is irresponsible at best. Doing it to unpaid consultants who give up a year of their time with zero compensation to help you make more money is beyond disgusting. Fix your ****. "Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |

Snow Axe
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
961
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 15:42:00 -
[2] - Quote
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:If getting a death threat is too much for you to handle, don't run for public office, either in RL or EVE. Comes with the territory.
CSM isn't "public office"; even the lowest public office has pay and actual power/influence. The choosing of the CSM may be a political process, but you're not a governing body, you're a group of consultants who aren't getting paid. That's an important distinction to make.
The bottom line to me is that the playerbase has absolutely no need or use for your personal information, so CCP has no reason to disclose it at-will to a playerbase who has proven in the past they cannot be trusted with information like this. Yes, the identities might get leaked anyway, and there's obviously no guarantees CCP could make to protect you or your identity in any way, but that doesn't mean they have to default at just handing it over to the players. "Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |

Snow Axe
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
961
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 17:58:00 -
[3] - Quote
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:If it is truly your position that a candidates RL experience and qualifications are irrelevant to the question of whether or not they will be an effective CSM, then I fear you will have great difficulty convincing CCP Xhagen of the merits of your case.
So you're saying it's impossible to tell people what you do without having your first and last name published?
That being said, Xhagen said himself at the summer Summit that he believes in publishing RL names as something to dangle over candidates' heads for behavioral purposes. If he's such a firm believer in the importance of credentials, why didn't he say that? "Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |

Snow Axe
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
961
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 18:46:00 -
[4] - Quote
Seleene wrote:Of the many things to type ~words~ about, time has proven that this is a subject that will get nowhere. This isn't about a game mechanic or something; it's a whole different area of discussion. CCP isn't going to change this rule; the CSM is set up the way it is for a reason. That's not my opinion, it's just the way it is. v0v
Quoting this to make sure that everyone sees the attitude their voted advocacy group chair takes towards relevant issues because holy ******* ****  "Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |

Snow Axe
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
961
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 19:45:00 -
[5] - Quote
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:>implying issue is relevant
It was part of the summer Summit and included in the minutes. If that doesn't make it a relevant topic of conversation, I don't know what does.
"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |

Snow Axe
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
962
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 19:51:00 -
[6] - Quote
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:It is shocking, I know, and hard to believe, but I have it on reliable authority that anonymous people on the Internet have been known to misrepresent their qualifications.
Right, and the only solution you can think of to this is to publish RL information and encourage the playerbase to go stalking to verify if their claims are true? "Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |

Snow Axe
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
962
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 20:49:00 -
[7] - Quote
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:So verifying someone's resume is stalking, is it? I enjoy forum performance art as much as anyone, but I rather think you've taken a left turn into the Theatre of the Absurd.
That said, I am sure that CCP Xhagen will find your positions interesting reading when he graces us with his polite but looming presence. I look forward to reading his response.
I'm glad you mentioned the resume thing: I actually peeked back at the candidacy threads of all y'all that were elected. A whopping 4 of 14 of you made any reference at all to your RL selves, and only yourself and Seleene went into any detail (Two Step just briefly mentioned his name and occupation, and Meissa just made a not-detailed mention of past jobs he's had as a developer). Even among those of you who released RL information, only Seleene's was any significant part of what they ran on (understandable given he was a former CCP dev). I don't think this whole "verifying RL credentials" thing is anywhere near as important as you're making it out to be.
Can it be a benefit? Absolutely. It should also be the candidate's choice whether they choose to use that to their advantage in an election or not. All this talk of CCP appreciating the value of RL credentials is irrelevant, as they have no say in choosing who actually gets elected (and if they wanted to start vetting RL credentials for candidates, they could still do this themselves without releasing the information to the playerbase). "Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |

Snow Axe
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
962
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 20:55:00 -
[8] - Quote
Issler Dainze wrote:So for a point of reference having gone through this a number of times, the only time it has ever come up for me was shortly after the Goons war dec-ed us when I was elected to CSM 7 I did have a goon follow me around in game sharing his pretty detailed knowledge of my home and current pet, implying that this could cross into RL consequences for me.
Right, and the only reason this happened is because CCP released your name when you became a candidate. Without that, there's nothing to go on that you yourself don't volunteer (and if you do volunteer it, then it's your own problem).
If CCP had any good reason to publish your name, then you're right, this would be an unfortunate consequence. What we're saying is that they DON'T have a good reason to release it, and thus shouldn't. Things like this happening to you or anyone else are simply reinforcing that. "Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |

Snow Axe
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
969
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 13:05:00 -
[9] - Quote
Seleene wrote:But that's just the thing - I've never felt like my personal safety was at stake over this video game. The idea that someone would be that deranged is more ****** than anything IMO. This feels like a strange FOX News segment tbh, where the other side literally starts to pull out an axe to make their point... 
You can even ignore the "personal safety" stuff if you want. Take a look at Issler's situation - someone found RL info about her and tried to use it to creep her out. Definitely not "personal danger" stuff, but very easily "disturbing your life" stuff. Let's say that happens to you - now you have to think about how far this idiot is going to go. Prank calls? Work calls? Death threats? All of the above? Sure, a prank call isn't going to make you immediately be ~unsafe~, but it's bullshit that you now have to deal with because CCP decided to publish your name.
So now we get back to the real crux of the issue that keeps getting avoided - WHY does CCP have to publish your name? Let's stick with Xhagen's own justification from the minutes for simplicity's sake:
Quote:CCP Xhagen: The answer to "why are we using real-life names" is "practical matters". We are playing on human nature, creating accountability, and we can't guarantee you will remain anonymous when you run for CSM, therefore it's just easier -- the simple solution to all this is, "we will just publish your real-life name". If that reduces the number of candidates, then we are willing to pay that price. It also means that if someone starts to threaten you, you have a certain safety-net with the authorities because they are threatening you as a real person, not as an EVE character.
I'm going to ignore the logical stupidity of "we can't guarantee anonymity so we're removing it entirely" and focus on the real issue, which I've bolded.
Creating accountability. Xhagen's amalgam of vigilante justice and just world fallacy rolled up into one purely psychotic idea.
Willingly giving RL information to a playerbase that can, has, and most likely will go too far with it if they are so inclined as a method of policing behavior? That's unbelievable treatment for a paid employee - but for an unpaid consultant volunteering great amounts of their time to help you as a company succeed? There just aren't words for that level of disrespect. That any of you are lining up lockstep and saying "well, I personally haven't felt it's a problem" is just an extra layer of sad on top of all of it. "Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |

Snow Axe
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
969
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 16:15:00 -
[10] - Quote
I get it now, it's just about covering your legal bases, not at all about having RL issues tied directly to you being on the council or anyth-
Page 7, May-June Summit minutes:
Quote:CCP Xhagen expressed concerns about accountability. "How do you ensure that you behave like civilized people?" Two step: Do you think having my real name...? CCP Xhagen: Yes
Page 8, May-June Summit minutes:
Quote:CCP Xhagen : I decided upon this specifically because of accountability and social awareness -- if you do something stupid, your real life name is associated to the character, and you get a reputation in real life...
"One of these things is not like the other, one of these things just doesn't belong" "Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |

Snow Axe
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1008
|
Posted - 2013.02.25 08:33:00 -
[11] - Quote
rodyas wrote:Well point number 7 doesn't really jive well with number 4 really..
Sure they jive.
A contract requires specificity - in other words, you have to clearly define the "bad behaviour" you're trying to prevent, and clearly define the punishments that will happen if said rules are broken. This ensures that both candidate and CCP are on the same page.
Point 7 shows the problem of deviating from the contract, in that "bad behaviour" is no longer clearly defined, which leaves the definition in the hands of whoever has a candidate's RL name. It turns a clear boundary into a gigantic gray area, which is bad, especially when dealing with a playerbase as reactionary and quite frankly unhinged as the Eve playerbase.
Furthermore, everything you say about the inherent behaviour of candidates or any such nonsense is just that - nonsense. The bottom line is that we as players have no right to have the ability to punish people (not players, but the actual people behind them) for whatever definition of "good" or "bad" behaviour that we've conjured in our own minds. Advocating for this is like advocating for vigilante justice, and that's just wrong in every possible way. "Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |

Snow Axe
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1008
|
Posted - 2013.02.25 08:41:00 -
[12] - Quote
rodyas wrote:But I would say that CCP is more then an electronics company as well. They seem to like being independent and hip and pushing new ideas. So I imagine they have extra layers of hating censorship. Unless censorship was new and hip. But I tease myself too much.
"personae non gratis status"
You say this, and yet they still happily hang out people's RL identity to the pack of jackals that is the Eve playerbase, which translates into "appeal to everyone or catch harassment". A player having to censor how he plays in-game because of what some random player with his RL identity might do out-of-game should be worst case scenario for CCP. "Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |

Snow Axe
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1008
|
Posted - 2013.02.25 08:55:00 -
[13] - Quote
rodyas wrote:Well that is a worst case scenario, but like I said, a player can still cause grief or harass others, without knowing their RL name. (Which is why you can be banned for it.) But actions in real life have a tragic nature to themselves unique from internet trolling.
Right, it's worst case, and CCP is directly enabling and encouraging it by needlessly publishing people's RL identities. Of course harassment can still happen, nothing will eliminate it entirely. There's still no reason at all for CCP to enable harassment by publishing RL names, though.
rodyas wrote:As for the case of self censorship for self defense, that is another annoying problem. Be hard to solve that one as well.
It's surprisingly easy to mitigate. It's called "stop publishing people's identities, CCP". "Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |

Snow Axe
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1008
|
Posted - 2013.02.25 10:01:00 -
[14] - Quote
rodyas wrote:For the first part, CCP says they leave it up for the candidate to decide and weigh the dangers to running and see if they will accept the conditions. I say that since that is what CCP states what they will do.
Right, and the ENTIRE POINT OF THIS THREAD is that said "dangers" they will deal with because of CCP releasing their names are entirely unnecessary as CCP has no good reason at all to release their names. All that stuff about self censorship etc etc are just additional downsides to CCP needlessly releasing said information.
Again, for the cheap seats, the argument is THERE IS NO GOOD REASON TO RELEASE THE INFORMATION TO THE PLAYERBASE. Can you possibly stick to that instead of rambling incoherently about **** knows what that has nothing to do with the above argument? "Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |
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